The Hidden Blade Assassin's Creed in Depth

Borgia messengers are available, but they are not nearly as numerous as in AC2. The most frequent spawn point for them is taking the tunnel to the Thieves Guild, after completing the mission with La Volpe and rebuilding the inn. It would be hugely time-consuming to travel back and forth enough times to get enough money. (The second most frequent point seems to be outside the Isola Tiberina hideout, although it doesn't happen very regularly I don't think.)

The thieves won't pickpocket for you until you get enough of the guild challenges done. That would probably take a huge amount of time too.

Your best bet is probably doing your own pickpocketing. The place to do that is the Centro district north of the river; that area has the most people and they are more well-to-do than other areas of the city.

The Cento Ochi are good for a fair amount of money, along with sellable items. Be sure to loot them after the courtesan mission, the one where you try to ransom the madam. They're also usually found out in the countryside at night, but sometimes will venture into the city.

If you do any of the Borgia towers, be sure to loot the Borgia captain if you can. He always has around 990 florins.

Locating the treasure chests that have the largest amounts of florins in them might be helpful, although because the map only opens up gradually it could be difficult to find the large treasure chests early enough. Asaic has made maps of the whole city with the treasure chest locations shown. The shop items are listed on the maps, but not the florin amount. If you would like to have the info, I'd be glad to work on mapping the florin amounts in each chest, along with when it becomes available.

I love the crossbow, so I try to gain as much money as soon as possible so I can have it. The main thing I do is renovate as many of the shops as I can as fast as possible. I'm sure that would be too slow, however.

My aim is to buy the crossbow at the beginning of sequence 4. So I can gather money during the tail of S1M1, or while Machiavelli is on horse (otherwise I punch him).

Another possibility is, as you said, to loot the Cento Occhi in S3M3 but I believe the time balance (win/loss) isn't so much good.

But, I have to weight the pros and cons with the ammo for each sequence, for the crossbow, for the climb leap glove, for the tailor, etc. That's very complicated sometimes.

Also, you can investigate the chests in the area of travel of S2 and S3, but I'd prefer some statistics about how much you can pickpocket on the people (is it ~1k florins every... 50? 100?)

Thank you anyway, especially for the borgia captain trick; I didn't remember that.

Here's some research on Sequence 2. I pickpocketed continuously while fast-walking whenever possible (you have to ride a horse when following Machiavelli from Augustus mausoleum to the pickpocket guy, then again from the Campidoglio to the Colosseum), although I slacked off the pickpocketing slightly whenever guards were close enough to notice. I went pretty directly from one objective to the next and pickpocketed everyone I came across while not going out of the way to do so. The same with chests; if any were in my path, then I stopped and picked them up. Except for one chest, all of these in this sequence were small - under 200 florins - so it wouldn't matter greatly if the small ones were skipped (there were only 5 total in any case).

I began Sequence 2 with 0 florins and ended this sequence with 8527 florins. It breaks down roughly like this: Mission objective rewards, chests and some special circumstances (detailed below) = 5798 florins. Thus, pickpocketing netted 2729 florins. Most people coughed up between 11-15 florins, with occasional takings of as low as 7 and as high as 25.

The special circumstances are these:
Memory 3: Loot the Borgia Captain for 918 florins.
Memory 4: Kill and loot the pickpocket after you catch him for 500 florins.
Memory 5: Kill and loot the Borgia courier after you catch him for 1500 florins.
Memory 6: There is a large treasure chest with 1597 florins in the Hall of Nero Romulus Lair. It's in the room with a circular tower in the middle and a couple of bridges built out from it; just after the very first point where Ezio knocks down some masonry that will enable him to climb back up. (We call this the "Bene point", from Ezio saying, "Bene! Now I have a way back up in case I fall".) The chest can be seen to the left at this point. Getting it requires climbing up the central circular tower, shimmying to the left and jumping onto the bridge. It can be grabbed pretty quickly, I think. I ignored the other chests in this lair.

So, that's what I have so far.

I like it! Bene point is now officially a part of the THB lexicon.

First of all, thank you for your research.

In fact, my aim in pickpocketing is to rely on very rich people. Yesterday I had one with 981f and one with 867f in a 10 minutes period. My method was to throw money, wait a few seconds and then fast walk through the people.

I'm not at home right now, but I believe ~10k florins at the end of S2 could be enough to buy the crossbow at the beginning of sequence 4. Also, I will test if you can just grab the thief and the messenger instead of kill and loot them.

Given I can pickpocket 7k florins (3k in S2M3 + 2k in S2M4 + 2k in S2M5) and I collect all the money you're speaking about (every borgia captain), I still need ~2k florins at the beginning of S4 and ~5k during S5. Because I need to replenish the ammo too.

I'm starting to wonder if I need to find a glitch, or if the crossbow is really that useful...

Bene point compilation. (Slightly outdated)

So I played through Sequence 3 with the same parameters as sequence 2 (walking everywhere while pickpocketing, [except for occasionally having to run from hostile guards] etc.). I made a note of the amount of florins I was carrying at the start of play, then deducted that amount from the total at the end of the sequence. I had a net gain of 7800 florins during the sequence, for a total of 16,327 florins for those two sequences.

There were several special circumstances as follows:

Memory 1: A coincidental Borgia courier showed up as I exited the thieves' guild, so I nabbed him for 1500.
Memory 2: Looting the Borgia captain = 928 florins.
Memory 3: It's required to spend 2500 florins to renovate the brothel. This was the first time I spent any florins. There was a coincidental Cento Occhi attack on my way to trigger the memory, so I took the time to fight and loot them, and I also took the time to loot the Cento Occhi on the boat who are holding the madame hostage, resulting in 2303 florins.

Sequence 3 is a bit tricky as there are only 4 memories and one of them is spent simply talking to your allies and the architect, so no money-making opportunities there. There is a lot of traveling between the memory trigger points; however fast-walking those distances is really inefficient for speed-running - in addition to having a significant portion of the traveling in sparsely populated areas of the countryside, which is inefficient for money-gathering. The coincidences of a Borgia courier or the Cento Occhi cannot be relied on.

Before beginning sequence 3, I spent some time noodling around and playing with the pickpocketing, both with just walking around and also with thowing money to gather a larger crowd before beginning the thievery. I walked around randomly for approximately 20 minutes and only encountered 4 occasions of the very rich people who had 700-900 florins. (That only occurred once during sequence 3 play, as well.) All of these were obtained while fast-walking. After scattering money first - which I did 12 times - there were no unusually large amounts of money to be had from the people. If you are able to consistently find these really rich people, then that's really groovy but it seems pretty unreliable.

If you'd like me to run through the sequences again to see if this result is repeatable, I'd be happy to do so if it would help.

Awwww, thank you Slembroccoli! This was amusing!

I meant to add before, that whenever my kids and I are playing some game, if we ever have to go and do a special thing to open up a shortcut, one of us will say, "That's for bene purposes!"

Let's add all those amounts of money before going on. I will edit this post (#10) as much as needed. (This edit isn't updated)

S2M1: pickpocket (with 1 rich person): +1500 (involves luck)
S2M4: loot the thief
pickpocket: +100
S2M5: loot the messenger: +1500 (plus an item / 4 seconds lost)
pickpocket: +100
S2M7: treasure chest
S2: rewards: +1100

S3M3: renovate the blacksmith: -800
buy ammo: -2000
catch a messenger: +1500 (plus an item / involves luck / 3 seconds lost)
tackle a tower: +1000
Sub-total when trying to save the courtesan: 4000f
renovate the rosa in fiore: -2500
looting cento occhi (not worth it)
S3M2: borgia captain
S3M1: treasure chest: +1500 (12 seconds lost)
renovate art merchant: -900 (8 seconds lost)
sell shrunken head: +11000
bank income (not worth it)
S3: rewards: +750

S4M1: buy ammo: -2000
sell two items: +1000
Sub-total when buying the crossbow: 12850f
buy the crossbow: -12800
tackle a tower: +1200
S4 (before meeting Leonardo): rewards: +5500
Sub-total when buying the climb leap glove: 6750f
S4M8: buy the climb leap glove: -6100
S4M9: catch a messenger: +1500 (plus an item / involves luck)
S4 (after meeting Leonardo): rewards: +2100

S5M1: catch a messenger: +1500 (plus an item / involves luck / 3 seconds lost)
sell two items: +1000
buy ammo: -4250
reward: +1000
Sub-total when giving to the senator: 3500f
give to the senator: -3000

I will test this evening how much time is saved and lost for: bombs, knife belt upgrades, crossbow, climb leap glove. Also I will try to see which shops are available without any renovation.

Don't hesitate to tell me if I've forgotten something.

Question about 2 of your expenses: Ammo in sequence 3 (-2000) and ammo along with crossbow purchase (-2000). What kind of ammo are you buying in sequence 3, and you don't need to buy ammo along with the bow? It comes equipped with 15 bolts.

I guess that was 2 questions, lol.

10 bullets x 175f + 5 knives x 50f = 2000f

A tailor and a banker are available near the thieves' guild without renovation.

But the bank amount of money is ridiculous at this sequence: only 208f. Also, I could sell items for about 300f each (those found on the Borgia messengers).

By the way, I can encounter two more messengers in S3M1 and one more on the way to the S3M2 (because it's a campaign road).

Post #10 edited.

sequence 2 edit needed:

should be +2000??

Yes, thanks. I will post later some things about time losses and gains.

Edit: all right, here are some estimations.

All the methods we described above sum up to a time loss of 40 seconds.
The bombs don't save time at all, given I manipulate luck in S6M1.
The first knife belt upgrades, available at sequence 4 and 7, would save the same amount of time as what I loose to buy them, plus they need a tailor. And I finally don't want to speak to a tailor at anytime.
The climb leap glove, on the contrary, could save about 20 seconds, so it's worth loosing a small amount of time to have a bit more money.
Last but not least, the crossbow could save about 30 seconds in S4, and 30 other seconds in the rest of the game.

Now I hope the planning will be finished soon.

You could try looting ammo instead of buying it.

I thought to this solution but there are only rare memories where I can do that (in fact it's only S5M2); the other tailing memories I have to pickpocket, or it's impossible to do.

Also, if it does not trigger red alerts, this method brings some more randomness in the run, and I don't like randomness.

A last argument I have maybe... The amount of money for ammo (2k or 3k for each sequence) is not a big deal comparing to others (13k for the crossbow, 6k for the glove, 6k+10k for the knife belt upgrades, 9k for the bomb pouch, ec).

So I guess I will not loot ammo; I will buy it.

You aren't doing SS, right? So what's to worry about?

I'm not doing SS, but looting ammo brings too much randomness for a too small reward.

Depends on how often you get ammo. Which I think is pretty often. I haven't played AC:B in ages, though.

I get ammo at the beginning of each sequence, which is almost enough to kill all ennemis with at least double kills (using ammo).

Also, the only place I can see where I can loot some guards is S5M2, and I don't need so much ammo in S5...

GOT IT, GUYS!!!

That Borgia messenger thing gave me an idea that I had to confirm. If I tackle a borgia tower in S3M3 instead of S3M1, and if I take a ~20 seconds detour when going from the hideout to the thieves' guild, I can loot a shrunken head and sell it to an art merchant for 11000f!!!

Post #10 edited; methods that take time are removed.

11000ƒ for a shrunken head?!? AWESOME!

I checked it once more a few minutes ago... Yes, the shrunken head brings 11000f when sold to an art merchant. According to me, this big amount of money compensates the fact that there are only two in the game and those two are needed for a shop quest.

Edit: given the planning as is it is now, I have just enough money to begin S5M2, but I have also 6k at the beginning of S6, 10k for S7 and 22k for S8, without any use for all this money...
(S8 doesn't need weapons at all, and for S7 I have more than enough ammo for every ennemy; the amount of time saved by a knife belt upgrade wouldn't be worth it in S6)

Hey guys, I forgot that burning the borgia towers brings money too (1000f and 1200f for the towers I've chosen).

This way, using only luck pickpocketing in S2M1, the shrunken head and a few messengers (with the luck they carry piper nigrum), I might get it right (loosing less than a total of 30 seconds). Currently working on it.

Good to hear that, Fed. I'm looking forward to seeing your run when it is complete. In the meantime, keep us posted.

Post #10 edited. If anyone has enough patience to check the sum, go for it. By the way, I'm looking for a better compromise between time lost, money earned and luck involved; but that seems very difficult now.

(for instance I think catching two messengers is really easier than catching a messenger with piper nigrum)

Edit: I'm beginning to worry about these Borgia messengers. Will I really find them "quite" easily at the beginning of S3 and S5, and after S4M9?

Edit: After re-beginning sequence 3 over and over during 30 minutes (which means at least 30 times), I encountered a messenger 3 times, and they were not on tiber island... They were not on my way either.
Also, I was horsing around the colosseum during 5 complete minutes, and no messenger appeared.
I think I will rely on borgia captains, or cento occhi, or even some treasure chests. I will loose ~25 seconds instead of 12 seconds, but it's worth it. And I won't become mad when recording the run (this is pretty important, isn't it?)

You of all people should know that keeping cool is one of the most important aspects of speedrunning.

I'm currently preparing a list of possible trasure chests (and their corresponding items to sell). I will test if the money will be enough. If not, I will loot two Borgia captains. And if this isn't enough, I will loot the Cento Occhi, finally.

More news later.

Edit: now I found a compromise. I will pickpocket in S2M1, kill and loot the borgia messenger in S2M5 (4 seconds lost), loot 5 treasure chests (2 of them won't add time, the total time lost being 20+2*3=26 seconds), and loot 2 borgia captains (6 seconds lost). So, 36 seconds lost with just enough money for every place it's needed, I'm happy with this. Oh and I'm too lazy to edit post #10 (later, maybe).

Can we fully label them alpha, beta, gamma, etc?

As in "Once you pass Secret of San Marco's Bene Point Delta, climb up onto the ... "

That reminds me of something I found out a while ago. I found a way to create a Bene point (in a certain way). Perhaps (with Lisa's permission) I can use this term if I ever make the video.

Yes, Aurel, please do.

By the way, you're speaking about that bene point where I go directly from the ground... Haha no climbing required for this one. (speed matters, you know)

That must be why some people sell shrunken heads and then ask where they can find more for the shop quest.

Did you know that, in S2M4, the thief steals 200f to Ezio, but gives back only 100f? I... didn't know. (yay pickpocketing)

Edit: did you know that knives cost 75f each instead of 50? That is quite bad but I think I can avoid bankruptcy thanks to the borgia captains.

Hey there. Here are some news about the run.

Fantastic.

Hurry up so I have another distraction from work.

[Double McStab's "good news, bad news" mode]

Did you know that crossbow bolts cost 175f each and not 150f? That is quite bad.

BUT for sequence 5 I don't need to buy all ammo at the beginning.

BUT it means I didn't need so much money, and my plan is bad, from that point of view (about 2k florins aren't needed finally).

BUT the time lost for this amount of money is less than ~10 seconds, so I don't need to worry and redo all from sequence 2.

[/Double McStab's "good news, bad news" mode]