The Hidden Blade Assassin's Creed in Depth

I'm also on my second playthrough, trying to ramp up the difficulty. I'm playing without any armor, only using fists/hidden blades, no HUD and without upgrading my medicine pouch. I can only confirm what Asaic said, it's alot harder than my first playthrough! Very rewarding though. There's nothing like using Palazzo Ducale or Santa Maria Dei Fiori as landmarks for navigation

good idea asaic. i just got to venice... still havent purchased/upgraded anything i didnt have to, and i'll try to keep it that way

I'm not a big fan of extra difficulty by way of handicaps, personally. I'm just doing this so that my save backups are as "clean" as possible. However, I've been picking up all of the codex pages to save a lot of running around in the final memory sequence, as well I have been upgrading my pouches as I can afford them. Not picking up treasure chests makes that tough to do, and I've had little money left over so far to put into the villa. I think I upgraded one thing. It's not even worth the trip there to clean out the chest when it's full. Ultimately, though, it's not quite as difficult in my playthrough as it could be for purists.

I know that a lot of people want the game to be more difficult, so I figured this post should go up to let them know how tough it can really be.

My issue with this idea is that they rarely give you directions in the dialogue in AC2. AC1 always gave you directions, even if vague, so it was feasible to navigate. You could also see a lot more from viewpoints (shorter buildings). In AC2, it's tough to make out anything useful from viewpoints and finding mission start points is more a process of randomly stumbling upon them if you don't remember where they were from a previous playthrough. Most of the time the cutscene dialogue gives no directions at all. You'll get stuff like, 'go meet this guy and he'll tell you what to do' but it never mentions where 'this guy' is.

It's too bad, because I enjoyed playing without the map in AC1. The cities felt larger and more immersive that way.

I'm afraid I can't agree with you there. I find navigating without the mini-map (I still check the big map once in a while, not that often though) a rather simple task. I'd say almost 50% of the time the dialogue gives you something like "Just north of the duomo". And when not given that kind of information, I just check the map, put the waypoint in relation to a large landmark (Frari, Duccale, Seta, the Duomo etc). Then you know that the location your heading to is e.g east of Santa Maria Dei Frari, and you almost always know what you are looking for, and the memory start markers are rather easy to spot from the rooftops if you easily get lost wandering the web of streets. After a while you begin associating certain buildings with certain common memory starts (Thieves guild, leonardo's workshop etc). Sure, you can't play without ever looking at the map, but I've yet to find myself checking the map more than once every 5-10 minutes or so.

That's just it, if I'm giving up the mini-map it's only logical to give up the large map as well. The entire point is to go purely off visual landmarks like they really would have back in those days.

If you can justify using the big map, might as well just use the mini-map too.

I draw from recent experience that you get way more immersed in the actual cities by turning off the minimap, but still checking the map when you have to. It's not like you need to check the map that often at all. When I check the map, I check it once only. I don't open it on the way to my destination "just to check that I'm on the right track" or anything.

It's all the same to me. I rarely use the mini-map as it is, save for guard positions. I only open the big map when I'm looking to see what general area something is in, then I don't need it again.

If I were going to the trouble of turning off the mini-map, I'd stop using the big one too.

...unless your directionally challenged like me, then you'd never get anywhere unless you use BOTH maps..lol

same goes for me

Fortunately, most of us don't suffer from lilk-itis.

Gah...most of us dont' suffer from Asaicitis (absolute recall of minute details of the streets, which I am usually streaking past while I wag my tongue at the guards persuing behind )

<3 As

I also suffer from this newly named syndrome, lilkitis.

Now I don't feel so bad

I was curious if anyone tried playing in full notoriety for any length of time and how did that contribute to the difficulty of the game?

haha you guys are too funny..anyone that admits to suffering from my disease is humble indeed

It's only really difficult at the point of the game where you're forced into it; you have no weapons (not even the hidden blade yet) and all the guards are using swords and maces and arrows. That can be tough if you get surrounded and can only duke your way out or run.

At any other point in the game, all it does is cause guards attack you more often. Once combat begins, nothing is different so the difficulty does not change.

I would have liked to have seen notoriety be more serious. It should be slower to build but much more difficult to remove. That would make you think twice about your public actions. I would also like to have seen tougher troops out on the hunt for you once you're notorious. Groups of Seekers and Brutes should be patrolling the streets, actively seeking you out. There should also be some groups of Agiles partrolling rooftops, looking for you. And by patrolling, I mean both of these types of groups should be actively wandering all over, not just up and down a single stretch of road. Their paths should be random and dynamic. They should split up to search each area. Agiles should peek over rooftops toward the streets, Seekers should check all hiding spots and Brutes should shove people around to break up crowds. By splitting up (but staying relatively close together), they'll greatly increase their chances of finding you and their buddies are just a yell away.

Crowds should also recognize you and ruin your ability to blend if you stay near them too long. If civilians see you from a medium or close distance, they should react like guards currently do while you're notorious, being a little curious and then after some time they will identify you and shout out. Nearby guards (especially the patrols) should coming running.

The patrolling guards should also be more "elite", taking more hits and fighting harder. You should really have a feeling of being in over your head when you're spotted while notorious. Street travel should be pretty risky. Imagine walking into a small open area and suddenly a group of Brutes and Seekers marches around the corner. You dive into the nearby haystack before they see you, but you know you can't stay long because the Seekers are checking all of the hiding spots while the Brutes are breaking up the crowds. Just as you see an opening where you can jump out and run without being seen, you hop out and hear "Hey! There he is!" from above. It was an Agile peeking down from the rooftop. This alerts the group on street level to come rushing at you and the group of Agiles all drop down from above to join the fight. Suddenly you've got 8 - 12 elite guards surrounding you and you know that you're toast if you stay. So you bust out a smoke bomb and haul ass outta there. But these guys aren't dumb and many of them will back out of the smoke field and soon be able to see you, meaning you have precious little time to get a head start.

It's stuff like that I would like to have seen in this game. Like the first AC, you're far too overpowered. There's never reason to be afraid. Having a chase where you know you're dead if they catch up is a great thrill and could add a ton of fun to this game. And having the elite guards gives something tough to fight as long as you can take them in smaller groups.

Another little addition for the elite guards is that it would be great if they could grab you the way you grab NPC's. You can struggle to get out, but chances are their buddies would get a swing in before you do. If we want to make things really difficult, if you're hit while being held (say stabbed by an Agile's dagger), it should do serious damage to you (1/2 or maybe 2/3 your health) and then you break free. Guard breaking would be really important then.

I understand what you'd like to see, but how realistic is that to write into a game? How much code would that take? How much knowledge? I know nothing of computer programming so I may have unrealistic expectations of a game..but you DO understand code so by speaking these 'wishes' are you saying that what you'd like to see is totally realistic? even with time (and money) contraints?

Oh and don't forget us loser players that aren't going to spend hours in the same battle just to win it...the frustration would kill us. Have to stay realistic to general interest in excitement vs skill there..have to appease all the masses..not just those that have played the game many many times.

Oh, it's absolutely doable. In fact, a lot of the code is already there. This might get a bit technical, but I'm keeping it in layman's terms.

Guards can already walk over to you and shove you, so just code the elite-flagged Brutes to do it to any blend-crowd-NPC's they come within X units of range. If they see a crowd within 10 meters or so, they'll turn their attention and walk toward it and shove the nearest guy. This will break up the blendability of the crowd and cause them all to react exactly the same as if Ezio had walked into the group and punched an NPC.

Seekers already check hiding spots, but there is usually only ever one Seeker at a time, and they're so rare as it is. Code to have two in a group instead of just one, and give hiding spots an additional bit flag that represents whether or not a Seeker is checking it. As soon as a Seeker finds a hiding spot within X units of range and it locks on and begins the AI routine of walking over to and searching the spot (which they already do in the current version of the game), it would simply flag the hiding spot's bit to mark it as 'being searched'. That way Seeker #2 won't also come and check the same spot at the same time because since he's two steps behind, he won't be in range of the hiding spot until Seeker #1 has already seen it and decided to search it. He'll continue patrolling the area until he sees another hiding spot, then locks on, it gets flagged as being searched, and the Seeker heads over to it and searches. Easy.

The AI already exists for free-running along rooftops (pickpockets, Borgia messengers, Archers, Agiles, certain assassination targets), so just use that but have them walk instead of run as they do their patrol. It shouldn't be tough to have them walk to the center of any roof edge more than X units wide and peek over for X seconds and have their field of view point downward. The AI for tracking is already in place based off the player; when you're following a target, as soon as you break line-of-sight between the target and the camera, the timer begins to catch up to them. Simple switch it up so that the "camera" is at the Agile's location and if there's a line of sight to you, the player, it triggers them spotting you.

The ability to grab already exists in the game as you, the player, can already do it. Having the AI do it is a simple matter of creating a new 'move' for them and copying over the animations from when Ezio does it to NPC's. Once they've successfully grabbed, they'll be switched to a new 'state', from which they can continue to hold (allowing another NPC to attack you) or attack you themselves using the same moves you get when grabbing opponents. Have the elite guards (perhaps just the Agiles) attempt this move every so often, and put back in the guard break ability from the first game, both for you and for the AI. Then code in the ability to free yourself from a grab by tapping [Free Hand] or something. The only issue I foresee is that there might not currently be an animation for freeing oneself from being held. I don't think any of the AI in the game can escape once you've grabbed them. I think that you can hold onto them forever once you successfully grab them. If that's the case, then make it so that Ezio cannot escape when successfully grabbed and has to take the hit. Add a bit to the AI so that if they're alone, they don't grab you, and if you're already being held and they end up alone (other guards fled or died after the grab), then they throw you. Stuff like that.

If the code for AC2 was accessible, I would totally write this stuff up as a mod. I've done similar things for other PC games. It's usually not as difficult as it might seem because there's a lot of currently-existing stuff to work with.

Do you think this type of game would frustrate first time or novice gamers tho? Or should have Ubi had a novice/hard/expert setting to support the gameplay you speak of?

Not at all. This would only pertain to when you are notorious. If people want an easier experience, they should avoid doing things that make them notorious. If they want things to be tougher, they could allow themselves to become notorious and not make any efforts to change their social status. The capes would also be much more useful than they are currently.

Brutes can already grab you. Disarm one and drop the weapon somewhere he won't pick it back up. Face the other way, and he might grab you

Interesting. I'll have to try that.

Either way, I'd prefer it if they could grab you any time, armed or unarmed. Maybe in AC3.

Why give up the large map? Ezio might have actually had a map, you never know

If you're giving up the small one, it only makes sense to me to give up both. It's either map or no map. Getting rid of the little one doesn't really change much if you're still going to use the big one.

I like using the map with no icons. Simply a place to help me find landmarks.

According to a new user in another thread ("Story Time"), alive disarmed brutes actually "bear hug" you, allowing his allies to strike you. However, this has never happened to me, so I can't confirm anything.

Edit: oops, just read the post by Giga up above, sorry :

I just never heal myself. That way, most falls/enemy attacks mean instant death. It makes you a lot more careful and it's a pretty good way to test yourself.

Broken leather armour - (when I start a new game, I'll use none), no medicine, and no sword. I also like to use fist knockouts instead of combos/counters.

After Eagle's Bruise is complete my third playthrough is going to be Eagle's Blood, which is where any time I enter a fight, I don't walk out on it (even that one at the hanging of the Auditores where it's you, unarmed, vs. a whole army). Now normally this wouldn't be so controversial, but I'm not going to lower my notoriety at any point in the game (with the exception of when you're forced to by story progression). I REALLY wish that I had the Auditore cape from the start, but I guess I can manage with just the regular cape (no Medici or Venetian, though).

And although Eagle's Bruise won't be with the 5 block health system, I might try that with Eagle's Blood.

I'm currently not buying treasure maps to make getting money a bit harder. If I see a chest, I grab it but now I don't go out of my way seeking them. So buying armor and upgrades is a bit more difficult (for now early in the game).

Normally i dont like making handicaps but this game makes it fun

Before i saw this topic i did some of these rules as well

At the moment im trying to get 100% with the lowest kill count possible. At the same time I am

-Never lowering Notoriety
-Never taking money from the Villa
-Never buying Armour ( il buy weapons but just use common sword, cant ditch armour)
-Never repair Armour
-Never buy treasure maps ( but grab treasure if i find it)
-Never grab Codex pages ( unless i must)

Maybe i will consider turning the map off, for those that do, is it more challenging or just more annoying?

If anything, It's more immersive. You still have to check the big map once in a while but I find playing without the minimap far more enjoyable than playing with it on.

Reacher:

Yeah, then il collect them at the end. Wont take long, seeing as i will have all viewpoints done. Doing it without a minimap will also be a challenge, il just check how many i have on the main map and go bank hunting

So far playing the game without a mini map has made me see more of the game a lot more than the first time i played it. You get to learn the city easier. However its kind of annoying in assassination/courier etc missions where you MUST check the map, there is no way i can tell where to go

so how do you lose the short sword/knife?

lol i spent 30 min trying 2 sheath the spearhead, then I stupidly go travel to the villa. Thennn.. bye bye spear.

You wanna play the game uber-kickass-hard, these are some ideas.

1) Fists only. Disarming's allowed, but not striking with a weapon.
2) Smoke bombs, all that unnecessary stuff is.. well, unnecessary.
3) You can only HEAL at a Doctor, can't use medicine. (Cheaper too)
4) Can't reduce Notoriety.
5) Can't wear capes other than Default and Auditore (if you really have balls lol.)
6) For assassination missions, Hidden Blades are allowed, but only to kill the main target. Scratch that. You can do anything you want to the main target, but all other enemies must be fought with fists.
7) Learn no Special Moves at the fight ring.

That's all I got.
Unlock the "hangover" difficulty, where Desmond's whole body hurts, he can't focus, and the Animus controls and camera angles are like the ones in Resident Evil 2. TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE.

^ So basically Eagle's Bruise?

And you can actually KO targets instead of killing them. It's what I've been doing.

Tots disagree with you there, Asaic. The same problem is in Oblivion, Fallout 3, Prototype, Fable 2, and far too many games these days - all you have to do to get to where you're going is follow the arrow/line/dots etc. You never need to learn the environment, or even pay attention to what is going on around you. Landmarks? Out the window. Situation awareness? Gone. All you have is an arrow. Turning that off is essential, in my opinion, to actually playing the game instead of letting the game play itself.

Now, not using the big map is another story. You have to know where you are going, unless you want to do ever-widening circles around the middle of the city until you find the glowing white spot for the mission. Some people are bad at directions, too, and so even having the big map is very necessary.

Turning off the map is even better in AC2 than in AC1, because of time! The sun goes down and the shadows move, but in AC1, when you figure out what direction the shadows point, it's pretty simple to navigate your way through the cities without actually having to pay attention to them.

I agree that in AC2, the contacts are terrible for not providing you with directions. They tell you to go somewhere you've never been and don't tell you where it is. It isn't very realistic. The first game didn't have this problem – they always gave you fairly clear directions and blind exploration was kept to a minimum. It was as if the game was originally designed to not use a map, but that they added it in later. AC2, in contrast, basically requires a map to know where to go because they rarely tell you where something is. Unless you're playing a subsequent play-through, that is.

My point was that if you're using the big map, why not use the small one? There is zero change in difficulty using the small one versus the big one. The only difference is the time it takes to stop and open the big one versus seeing the small one on the fly. They'll both get you to exactly where you want to go with extreme ease. The only difference other than time is the fact that the mini-map shows you guard positions. As fighting is easy and it's a cinch to keep notoriety low if you're trying to avoid guards, this feature is pretty useless in terms of difficulty.

Basically, if you're going to use one, might as well use the other.

eh, still disagree. There is one more difference that you are not mentioning, which to me is important. This is the thought process for only using the big map:

"Ok, my target is two blocks north east of the Palacia Ducal. Closing the map, i see that I am west of the Palacia, so i need to head in this direction."

using the minimap:

"Ok, I need to go this way"

Let's be honest here – very few people use the big map that way. Most people don't recognize landmarks like that. That's more of an experienced traveler's method of doing things, which the vast majority of AC2 players are not.

When first receiving a destination, players will check the map to see where they are and where the destination is, and thus which direction they need to travel to get from A to B. Then they close the map and head off in that direction, occasionally stopping to check the map again to see how close they are, if they need to alter their heading, if they have already passed it, etc.

That's precisely how I use the mini-map; during my travel I will occasionally look down to see if I am still heading in the right direction. I don't keep my eye on the mini-map the whole time, it's impossible to travel that way. You need to focus on your heading and obstacles and footing.

It's really no different to me than using the big map, save for the time savings of not having to open up the big map several times. A quick glance down is much faster. It definitely doesn't affect game difficulty in any way.