The Hidden Blade Assassin's Creed in Depth

Throwing knives could be adapted to fill the silent ranged weapon role again, but as I said, in a game which is specifically introducing new gunplay mechanics, I don't buy that they would essentially nerf guns in this way. and since AC3 removed throwing knives in favor of poison darts, we don't know if they'll be back.

Nope, we don't have to debate about this, or anything else, but you two are indulging me at the moment, which I appreciate.

It's like you're a pirate or something!

Heh, that would get old really fast. I'd probably end up being afraid to use my guns, which doesn't seem too piratey

EDIT: I realize that would just make it like AC1, which isn't a bad thing, but when you give me a gun and then treat it like a throwing knife, it feels bad. People would be upset with that.

It seems more pirate-like to toss away your one-shots and steal your enemy's. They'd be making a mistake not going that route.

In AC:B, guns and throwing knives had the same range. Though you can use both in a crouching position, you can only fully charge up the gun (when the white cursor appears). You can't aim your knives while crouching, which really bothered me. Also, while in a standing position, you have to be standing still. You can't move about like the crossbow.

Personally, I'd like a game where you can aim and move at the same time...which would make sense, considering the fact that Connor can now pick up/assassinate on the go.

TLDR partway down don't worry
@Joey, Pirates IRL picked up their guns later, and didn't ALWAYS throw them away if they were in a situation where they could avoid it.

In normal free-roam gameplay, if you shoot a single guy on another rooftop far away, and don't trigger combat, and you as the player see Edward toss his gun away, ignoring the fact that he has a huge pouch of ammo with which to reload, most players would call shenanigans on that, big time.

If such a feature were to be implemented, it would have to be in the way that pirates did it: they threw them away if they needed to quickly free their hands to grab another one, or a sword. So basically only in open combat.

That makes it even more unlikely this would be implemented as it would need them to make the game differentiate between shooting a pistol while incog and while in open conflict.

And don't even get me STARTED on how much glitch potential there is if you're using double-shot pistols.

It sounds like such a little thing, but from a design perspective, doing that changes EVERYTHING and means a ton of work, and for no real reason. Since it's a video game, they can easily make Edward holster his pistols really quickly after firing them, and even if they were matchlocks (which they're not) it's not like they can never be reloaded again.

I mean, neither of us knows anything about the game yet, but the odds are supremely stacked against this happening in so many ways, including the fact that we've seen footage of guns being fired (in-game), and no footage of them being discarded afterwards. In-game) In fact, Edward seemed keen to pull them back after firing so as not to accidentally drop them.

The CG trailer was adding some historical flair, as fighting on a deck is one of the situations where pirates would indeed use their pistols like that, but I wouldn't expect to see that happen in the game.

TL;DR: would anger some players, make free-aim somewhat less impactful, take away dev time from fine-tuning features that add more to the game, and hasn't been shown in any gameplay trailers, which are the only trailers that should be trusted on these matters, IMO.

@Ves, I do indeed hope that they change knives. The crouching animation is too obvious, I wish they'd make one like the one Ezio uses to kill two guards in the Brotherhood CG trailer. (he does it while walking too.)

Considering that the Pistol, bow, musket, and poison darts let you move and shoot in AC3, I'd assume ranged weps will work similarly in Black Flag.

you can't have it both ways...

from everything i've seen/read, double shot pistols won't be in this game, so you don't have to worry about that.

and it's easy to distinguish open combat from incognito... they already do it with the hidden blade in the AC3 combat engine.

and who says edward has a large pouch of ammo to reload from and that it's not all stored with the powder reserves on the Jackdaw? it would be nice to have a game that doesn't let your character carry 500 pounds of gear and jump from place to place like a gazelle and we know 40% of the story gameplay is on the open ocean... and the boat is how you get from place to place as it's all islands... it could be like a moving villa/homestead -- all your gear to exchange/reload is on the boat.

I am in no way saying that it wouldn't be an interesting change of pace for games in general, but judging from everything we've seen in the past I have no expectations for Ubisoft to do something so experimental with their flagship franchise.

And I'm sure someone on the dev team would be able to tell you just how much more work that would take. Usually whenever we go behind the scenes and someone talks about a seemingly simple new feature we find out it took 14 quarts of human blood and a boar sacrificed on the full moon to get it working.

Also nothing in the pre-release marketing for AC3 said anything about double shot pistols, but we got it anyways.

EDIT: oh, also: @jahlvardravito stay tuned for more next Monday =] spread the word for any Tumblr fanatics!— Billy Grove (@BillyGrantGrove) May 13, 2013

Billy Grove works for ubisoft in Digital Marketing.

So, monday we getting some new shiz.

THE first trailer for the game (the WORLD PREMIER trailer... the FIRST thing we see with this game) shows Edward drop his pistols (from side holsters) to draw two new ones (from chest holsters)... then drop those two as well... four pistols dropped in less than 2 seconds.

i'll leave it here for you to refresh your memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_GDeIee6Kc&t=0m52s

fast-forward to 52 seconds if it doesn't link there for you.

in fact, in this trailer, the first glimpse into the game, he NEVER shots a pistol and reholsters it... he always throws it away.

in none of the other trailers do we see anything after the shot before the scene changes to something else. maybe he saves the gun, maybe he doesn't. i don't know.

i'm just saying that this is where we first see edward. and this is where we saw him throw pistols away. and this video is what is causing the discussion here.

TL;DR at end.

I've said multiple times that I HAVE seen that trailer, and that it is 100% CG.

In-game footage always shows him not making any sort of motion that would indicate he is going to throw the pistol away, usually he clutches it closer to him after he's fired it.

I have given reasons why they would do that as a fun nod to history in a CG trailer, but would probably avoid doing it in a gameplay sense, and if they were and they were simply cutting out all the moments where he throws them away, there would be a MASSIVE outcry and it would be extremely dishonest advertising, considering the amount of times they showed him firing guns, and the fact that they never showed him stealing guns.

I really have seen that trailer and remember everything about it, and the moment I first saw that I considered it, but decided it wouldn't happen, for the reasons I just gave.

There is a history of minute details like that being in CG trailers and not in the game. The company that makes them is NOT a part of Ubisoft, and their animators are entirely separate from the animators on the team. They aren't bound by what gameplay designers want and need.

In Assassin's Creed 1's CG trailer someone was killed by the weight of Altair landing on him alone.

In AC2's, Ezio went inside a building to purchase the services of courtesans, physically handed them a bunch of money, and planned out a specific way to use them in an assassination attempt.

In Brotherhood, a rooftop guard detected Ezio even though he was on the street below.

In Revelations, Ezio's hidden blade is broken in combat.

All of those trailers could be inferred to imply, respectively:

In AC1, falling on someone can kill them.
In AC2, courtesans can be controlled to a micro level of detail, and are found inside buildings, which are fully explorable
In ACB, rooftop guards will detect you if you're on the ground and they're above you.
In ACR, weapons can degrade and will need to be fixed.

None of the above things were true, and for reasons that make sense if you think about them: they don't fit into the gameplay vision of the designers, or they would be too difficult to do for some reason.

TL;DR: CG is not bound by gameplay, gameplay footage has shown above 20 shots of Edward shooting guns and no shots of him even beginning to let go of them, I personally don't find it possible to believe guns will be treated as disposable in the game.

EDIT: I entirely understand why this discussion started, and I DON'T want to shut down discussion just for the sake of it, but I voiced my skepticism and I am providing answers to your further inquiries about why I am skeptical. I just want to make that clear.

Let me tell you a thing:

In AC1's trailer, it shows Altair landing on someone. He could've died, or maybe had the wind knocked out of him by the weight of a man several stories up landing on his body. This was probably the tackle move we see in AC2 and on, but they didn't get to put it in AC1 because of time/limited resource restraints. There was an AC2 developer diary (or something similar) that showed one of the developers explaining that AC2's new mechanics were what they wanted to put into AC1, the tackle move included.

In AC2's trailer, we see Ezio hire courtesans to distract a target so he can catch them off-guard. That's the exact same concept you can do in the game. You press a button to hire them, lock a target, then they distract them for whatever reason you need. It doesn't matter if they're indoors or out. It's EXACTLY what you're able to do.

In ACB's trailer, that obviously doesn't happen from a guard that high up (but if they were closer to your level and you were being watched out for, they could actually see you), but it was to show the Brotherhood element of the game, and how you can use your recruits as protection against guards that are out of reach of Ezio. It does it's purpose while slightly exaggerating the end game.

In ACR's trailer, Ezio gets his hidden blade broken. That happens at the beginning of the game. What's hard to understand about this? There's no hint that it's telling us the weapons must be upgraded. It shows that Ezio got flanked and broke an iconic Assassin weapon.

No no no, see, I'm not saying that those trailers LIED, I'm saying that if you think about them the wrong way you can make incorrect inferences about what they're telling you about the game.

I'm using purposefully wrong reasoning.

I didn't say just hiring courtesans, I said the level of control where you could get her to lure a guard into a crowd so you can strike. I also mentioned that since I saw Ezio inside a house, you can explore houses, and that's where you find courtesans.

level of control and ability to enter houses are things that the trailer SHOWS, but don't have to be in the game, even if they would be more realistic, appropriate to the period, and make sense.

dropping pistols are things that the CG trailer SHOWS, but don't have to be in the game, even if they would be more realistic, appropriate to the period, and make sense.

That right there is my argument for why them being shown in the CG trailer is not enough proof.

My argument for why they probably won't implement it in the actual game is mainly covered in the last few of my posts, but I thought of another reason recently:
Assassin's Creed 3 and Assassin's Creed 4 were in parallel development from 2011-2012. There was undoubtedly cross-pollination of dev work, as obviously both games are made in the same upgraded engine and play similarly. This means that the pistol system was developed for AC3, and was then improved for Black Flag.

The designers have data on how the existing AC3 pistol system could be balanced and improved, data that would not be as applicable if the system were to be radically changed, and besides that there are other systems in the game more in need of a radical redesign or improvement than the gunplay, and if such a system had problems, they would have wasted a significant amount of development time.

Oh hey look, someone was at an AC4 event and wrote this article about what he saw/was told about the game mechanics (gun droppage included).

If you don't want to read it, he basically says that pirates (especially Blackbeard) would strap several flintlock pistols to their bodies as intimidation and dominance in a fight. He mentions a couple of times about dropping their guns for rapid fire during close combat. In history, they'd shoot, then possibly use the fired gun as a beating tool. But he does mention dropping the pistols during combat after using them.

This wasn't from an event. This was him doing (historical) research and speculating. He didn't get that from seeing actual gameplay of what he described.

From the sound of that post, literally all he knew was what the box art looked like.

As I said:

I understand that there are accounts of guns being used in that way during that time period. That's why the CG trailer showed it. But gameplay comes before story, and you can't deny that if they wanted to make the gunplay by simply building on the AC3 gun system and adding free-aim, this would change their plans drastically.

If they had adapted their whole system to suit this new mechanic, it would have been a big undertaking, and you'd think they'd have talked about it over simply talking about free-aim, as it entirely changes the dynamic of how you'll want to use guns.

But the only time they've ever talked about dropping guns is when they're talking about the history. When it comes time to talk about gameplay they talk about doing double gun kill animations during melee combat, something that would be idiotic/very risky if guns were discarded during fights, since if ranged weapons are limited, you'd want to use them for... you know... ranged combat...

Plus none of the gameplay trailers show Edward using any restraint with his guns. Sure you could say it's just cut that way, but the way gameplay is portrayed in the AC trailers is generally how it is, in regards to what sort of things you'll be doing and seeing most of the time.

Also, I think you underestimate how badly the person who cuts the trailers would want to get a shot of Edward ending a fight with a pistol shot, and then dropping the gun and walking away, if that were a feature in the game.

Eh, misread that, then. Still, it's up in the air at this point. More people assume the disposing of guns, though for the obvious reasons. The main point I linked that article was to show that Ubisoft's historical detail will undoubtedly translate into AC4 with this new gun mechanic. Pirates actually used the "disposable gun" idea in real life, so it's easy to see them use that in the final game.

"Undoubtedly"?

There have been more than 4 minutes of gameplay, much of it showing guns being fired, no footage of them actually being dropped, and there's really not a doubt in your mind whatsoever?

And I quote myself again:

Gameplay comes before story. This has been said many times in many interviews by Ubisoft, and by most development studios in general.

one example of the technology of that time period being portrayed incorrectly for gameplay purposes? The ships. In the game, you can sail directly into the wind, and keep moving like the boat is motorized. Doesn't matter that you move slower, in real life, you do that, you stop. no question about it.

Ship is technology.
Gun is technology.
Ubisoft doesn't feel obligated to stay 100% accurate to ships if it doesn't serve gameplay.
Why do you think they feel obligated to be 100% accurate with guns if it would basically invalidate their role, making them akin to a throwing knife?

EDIT:

Something different: http://25.media.tumblr.com/878fcf524c485f0c5ad87e416532b6a5/tumblr_mmuqs...

Edward confirmed to have hair visible under the hood on his normal gameplay model. It only took five games, congratz ubisoft!

One reason would be because a lot of players complained that guns are overpowered even in single player. Doing this would add a challenge of saving ammo/guns. It's actually a good game element if they went down that road.

As I said, it's basically a throwing knife, then. The trade-off with guns is supposed to be power for noise, and long reloads that you won't be able to pull off during combat.

I said before that it could be MADE to work, but that it also changes the entire dynamic.

A game designed around one-use ranged weapons would likely not have you using then in melee combat animations, since you could use all four of them up in 10 seconds and you would have had no benefit for doing so other than aesthetically.

This game is not being advertized as a game where you want to be careful with your gun usage. Even in the CG trailer, Edward uses them all immediately, and the rest of the trailers feature gun use more prominently than any other weapon, with no footage of the consequences.

And if the game is obviously being marketed to people who like seeing guns in AC, why on earth would you assume that the majority of people didn't like the previous implementation of guns in AC?

I still maintain that this series is more than just mainstream appeal and explosions, but it definitely is not TRYING to spurn that audience solely in favor of a more niche crowd.

If the argument is that they simply are hiding it, that's not going to be good. Many people are not going to like that feature, simply because of the way guns have always worked before in this game, and because of what people expect a gun to do. If it were, for example, a game where guns were replaced by four throwing knives, no-one would care. It's all about context, and I don't think Ubi is blind to that. If this were a new IP they were starting, they would be free of certain obligations like that.

And anyways, they're not going to be able to hide it at a real E3 demo.

Exactly. You know that none of us are doubting one way or another, but we're saying what we're expecting from it based on trailers, articles, word of mouth, etc, that seem to point towards the same conclusion. All we can do is assume, but you writing textbook-long arguments repeating yourself over and over again, as if you know every bit of AC info for a fact, isn't going to change our assumptions.

This is a forum, and stuff like this happens on forums, but some things have to end before they begin. Whenever other members on here disagree, it usually ends with both sides saying, "Well okay, I guess we'll see soon." When someone says why they think your idea might be off by a little bit, that's not your cue to tell them why your idea can be the only possible solution.

Just wait for a demo or the actual game to find out what he does with the guns in combat. Someone will be wrong but at least we'll have fun killing Templars.

TL;DR: Fuck opinions, let's play the damn game.

Changing the topic a little bit, i wonder if Edward will have the spyglass tool someone else here was so sure Connor would have off a single cutscene and word of mouth speculation...

This is the same discussion we had then, but We're on opposite sides this time.

Didn't they say he'd have one? Similar to Far Cry 3's binoculars, they'd tell you what other ships have on board and if they're worth boarding.

I guess writing this was a waste after all:

I get it, debate is over. You could just say that you would like it to be over, though. I don't write a lot because I'm upset or frantic to prove you wrong, I just like to think about and defend my opinion in a long-form manner. I included multiple TL;DR's but w/e. It's a simple enough issue anyways, and we'll know the answer soon enough.

About Connor's spyglass, I'm pretty sure that was a feature that was cut from AC3, since they very plainly talked about it being in the game in an interview. Really disappointed it wasn't there, as it would have been fun.

Well at least it was a respectable debate. Remember, as long as no one forces their ideas on anyone, or puts them down, or insults them, or tells them that they just want to be right no matter how controversial the subject, no bad has been done.

In other news, I heard that Haytham joined the Templars because Edward told him...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RR9V-EL8qOk#t=76s

wh-

Gotcha!

Don't know if this was shared but I'll post it anyway, saw it on twitter... :3

http://assassinscreed.tumblr.com/

Cool stuff there, seemed rather interesting...

Something I didn't know: the three main cities can NOT be accessed seamlessly: you can see them from your ship, but you can't crash into them. I'd assume you get a pop-up asking you if you want to go to the city, when you get close enough. So not all THAT different. But I suppose with all the other smaller locations there's still some interesting potential for seamless sea to land (or reverse) missions.

EDIT: some confusion, I think it MIGHT be totally seamless on next-gen. Don't know if they've said. That would make a good bullet point during the E3 demo.

EDIT2: Found this video on why they chose the pirate theme. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acgJE1wKzE8&list=PL7B176F7C51D0244B&index=28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS9-kBECE10

Give whoever chose this song a raise, Ubi.

Players will be connected in the modern day storyline in singleplayer. Must be something to do with The Cloud:

That's it, I'm not even buying AC4. This trailer is all I need. Man, that was amazing.

(Just kidding, I'm still buying it.)

Plot twist: Patrice chose the song.

ahahaha!

@gerund: woah there horsie, wait til we see more gameplay before you pre-order! (and don't pre-order, pre-ordering sucks )

I won't, don't you worry.
It's just that I have sort of decided that I'm buying it, even if it turns out to be crap. It's compulsory, just for myself, I guess. I like the franchise too much to stop playing the games.

--

I realize now that I have been brainwashed. I will buy anything they release, even if it's terrible.
They control me. Save yourselves.

Ahaha, welp, they've given me a perfect jumping-off point what with the story arc that AC3 ended, so I've decided I won't get it unless they make me proper hyped for it.

AC4 will have a "mode creator": http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0saqpXSXQvs#t=70s

Basically, this means that you can create any kind of game mode, constricting size of the map, team division, eliminating certain options such as abilities or perks, etc. This sounds like a cool thing to do between us here. What do you guys think?

I think I would like it if I ever really got into the multiplayer aspect of the game...

I tried, young padawan. And then I cancelled my Xbox Gold...

Woah. That's great for the multiplayer community. They're not quite as big as the single player one, but they play the game longer and they're all pretty hardcore.

I think it would be fun for Jack (if he gets a PS4 ever) and I to create training levels/scenarios and put them out to the public, or perhaps just for the THB community if Ubisoft allows friends-only content.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Dgr49RRSg

30FPS for singleplayer confirmed. Eh, it's fine. 60fps isn't necessary for singleplayer anyways.

Talk about Edward's character, companion app, naval exploration: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10702978/assassins_creed_iv_black_flag_e3_...

Wanted system affected by how much loot you plunder on the seas.

Confirmation that the modern day story line will be first person at Abstergo Entertainment sifting through Desmond's DNA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Sdol453an_A#t=528s

EDIT: And we get to see what happened to Desmond post-AC3.

We're gonna go look at the room where his corpse is being extracted of DNA, you mean.

Not necessarily. He just said we'll find out what happened to him. We don't know Abstergo's way of doing this method.

Well, my avatar is an officially released picture of Abstergo agents dragging Desmond's body out of the Grand Temple.

Safe to say that's how they did it. The only way you can get someone's DNA is from their body, and I doubt the animus works with something like a few strands of hair Dessie might have left in the Abstergo lab.

Well obviously. For some reason the first thought in my head from your description was Desmond's body in some mad scientist scenario.

I'm not doing as well with reading people's comments recently. I need more sleep.

Oh, I fully expect to see it in a mad science scenario. It would upset too many people for them NOT to do it! : P

And get some sleep, bruv!

Good interview here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdol453an_A&feature=youtu.be

Ash said that the 50 locations are things like underwater environments, shipwrecks, forts, and plantations, and the three major cities.

Separate from that there are smaller locations that sound like little islands or coves, which apparently number over 75.

World's sounding big.

EDIT: so I'm a bit confused, they talk about stealth being "faster", but what I'm seeing is edward kinda moving both quickly and stealthily, in a crouched pose. Bit strange that they're not talking about the crouch button, if there is one. I wonder how on earth it could be contextual?

EDIT2: Holy crap, there's a first person open-world segment in Abstergo entertainment which you can visit at any time. Sounds like there'll be puzzles and secrets to find! Yes yes yes yes yes yes

EDIT3: http://static2.cdn.ubi.com/gamesites/uplay/v20/news/3306d1436143468f153e...

Edward The Legend Uplay reward.

Looks good! Not super Assassinish, but that's fine for skins.

But the Templars aren't supposed to be "evil". They're just supposed to have different views about the same goal of world peace. There are actual sympathizers for the Templars that play the AC games, so sh*tting on their understanding of them will make them angry about it and throw away the whole "shades of gray" theme that Assassin's Creed has had since the first game. If they showed Desmond's corpse strung up like a puppet with tubes all throughout him, it'll make the Templars look disturbed and morbid. They may be considered the antagonists of these games, but they can be honorable in their methods.

If Ubisoft allowed this idea to actually be put into the story, then I'll give up on the story. I believe they can use more "humane" ways to extract DNA files from a dead body. However, if they did that "evil scientist" route, they'd have to make it really interesting and unique. They may just put Desmond in an Animus and do something to his corpse so that it doesn't just rot away.

Who knows? Abstergo may have found a way to keep some bodily activity going so it's easier to extract memories. God, there are so many theories on this I could blurt out.

The Templars and Assassins may not be evil, just gray, but that doesn't mean they haven't done some seriously f**ked up stuff.

Abstergo drove test subjects insane and suicidal, they made an orphan boy into a time release weapon by re-writing their mind, plus almost all of their original 17 animus subjects were abducted and then killed.

And those were LIVING BEINGS. They're practical. If the more horrific to look at option were more efficient, I have no doubt they would go for it.

One of the first things we're told about them is that what they want is good, but the way that they go about getting it is bad. Showing the player what they're trying to accomplish with Desmond's memories, and then showing the player how they're getting said memories... that's a perfect way of illustrating that.

But of course, you're correct: they need to give it proper context. Preferably through someone like Vidic justifying what would appear to be desecration.

It could always be a discreet animus-like casket, though. I don't really expect it to look too barbaric, Abstergo is too obsessed with minimalism to do it on a rusty table with a tangle of wires or something.

After all, they have some f**ked up interior decorators.

I bet they'll put him in a room where he's encased in some sort of "frozen animation" encasement that can read his DNA and keeps his body fresh.

Okay, it just dawned on me what the hell we're discussing right now...